Appreciate the dose of sanity, per usual. People freaking out about the hire yesterday need to calm down. Sure, we all preferred Counsell but there is no reason Mendoza can’t work just as well.
I don't think 'we' all preferred Counsell, maybe the majority, but some of us would have preferred someone with experience as outlined by Cohen three years ago: he said he would not hire inexperienced people and pay them to learn “on my dime”, was the quote.
In my case I think they should have stuck with Buck and dropped Vogelbach
Can someone tell me why UFA's have QO's and draft pick consequences? They work hard to get into this position and then they have another anchor holding them back? For example, after next season when Pete becomes a UFA, will he have those strings attached?
This is the argument the players make in CBA talks. The idea is to protect teams from losing star players, or make it harder for big-market teams to scoop players up at no cost but money. But it has more worked as a depressing factor for players.
The players were offered elimination of the QO system in exchange for an International Draft but the players’ union turned it down. In any event I can’t feel too sorry for a player that is turning down a $20 million one year contract. It’s not as though they have to apply for food stamps.
Indeed teachers need to be paid more. But the PAT appears to be asking PPS to find money that the State of Oregon has not provided, a problem that cannot be solved by striking. (State provides all funding for schools in OR). So while they may get a slightly better offer via deck chair rearrangements, the kids and parents who pay plenty of taxes are the ones left holding the bag.
The players should form their own league but they're too wrapped up in themselves to even contemplate something like that. Where is Curt Flood when you need him?
If they were suffering enough, I’m sure they would. Or they would go play professionally abroad. I think they’re fine. Not gonna cry for them. They have a strong union that got them a strong deal.
I know what you are saying but any union that can get locked out because they are contemplating a strike is not a strong union. The players are short-sighted and quite frankly, not educated.
The owners want it both ways and it’s ridiculous. A clause like this skews a UFA’s chances of moving freely...because they are not moving freely. This should be challenged in court but I’m sure the players capitulated once again.
It's the principle of the matter. "Hey, you've reached x number of years, you are now an unrestricted free agent, except there are two prohibitive clauses that may keep you from making the most money, working where you want and teams may shy away from engaging you due to the penalties."
It's collusion, it's bullshit and somehow someone convinced people that this is what capitalism is. It's not. MLB is a tyrannical monopoly which behaves like socialists when it comes to the help. The players are the product and they produce the entertainment. What do owners do again? MLB is a monopoly and should be broken up.
Yes, let's hope that he is more than a "willing collaborator. "Something Buck Showalter struggled with" ? Considering Eppler's role in last seasons fiasco isn't it more like Eppler forced Buck to struggle in that role? Finally, another 1st time manager hire. Really, haven’t the Mets learned their lesson in doing that considering their recent hires before Showalter? Nothing, and I mean nothing that has transpired since seasons end has given me any confidence that the Mets will be anything other than a middle of the division team next year. Yet again, so Mets like.
It will still be exciting. This is the beginning of a new era. There will be growing pains and we will scream but it is all part of the building process. 2024 is another step and I can’t wait to take it all in.
To me -- knowing very little -- this looks like another massive failure by the media. Counsel sure seems like a Midwest lifer -- Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Milwaukee -- and the idea that he was coming to the Big Apple -- and that he would succeed in this environment -- seems dubious. Yet it was all presented to us as if it was a foregone conclusion.
On Mendoza: Who knows! I would have been okay with another year of Buck.
I am fine with selection. Stearns got someone he wanted and can potentially be here for a while. I am tired of the constant changing with this team. We need stability and Mendoza could be right hire since he is younger and can be in lock step with Stearns. We finally have stability with Stearns and I am fine looking at long term. I get we in NYC market but it’s about time we have stability.
Agree with Peter - its pure BS. I question Sterns resume - he also has 1 playoff win in Milwaukee - doesnt he ? I will say that Counsell was never coming to NY was playing the Mets
But if the Mets got the impression that Counsell preferred to stay in the Chicago/Milwaukee area, wouldn't it be a good decision to not offer him ridiculous money? The last thing you want to do is blow someone out of the water to try and convince him to do something he doesn't actually want to do.
“I feel like I gained very little insight from that meeting, which is obviously his prerogative to tell me or not tell me anything. I get it,” Ottavino told The Athletic. “There’s just so much on his plate, and this first year we just don’t have a lot of information on it yet, and I’m only signed up for the one year. The thought process is, I don’t know who else is coming on the team, I don’t know what’s happening with (Pete) Alonso, I don’t know what’s happening with the coaching staff.”
I find Ottavino’s quote the most illuminating thing from yesterday. He wanted to restructure his deal, which I take to mean he wanted to lengthen it. And Stearns was unwilling to give him insight into what the plans are for Ottavino beyond 2024 by committing to having him be a part of the 2025 bullpen. And unwilling to commit to Ottavino that his favorite coaches are coming back or that he will sign Alonso long term. Because why should he? It’s kind of silly. Stearns isn’t building a team around Adam Ottavino. He doesn’t need to confide in him what his plans are. He was willing to pay him $6.5M to be in the bullpen, but not more because there are probably 20-30 guys on the market that do what he does and will do it for that kind of money.
I honestly don't care because it's impossible to know. I thought Buck was a great manager choice for the way the roster was setup and it worked out very well in 2022 and then, for a myriad of reasons, didn't in 2023. I'm fine w/ a change, especially since the 2024 approach is not the full tilt all-in approach. I hate to just defer to the Front Office, but given the clamor to bring Stearns in for the last 2-3 years, to me, it seems, that the best course is to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am glad that Mendoza has experience in a ML dugout; I do think that's a helpful attribute to have generally. But again, who knows - I have never been in ML dugout outside of a tour I took at Shea in the early 1990's.
Buck Showalter was a first time manager. The season after he departed The Bronx? Yankees won the WS. The year after he departed Phoenix? The DBacks won the WS. And after he departed Arlington and Baltimore? Those teams went on to make great progress. Look, let's give Mendoza a chance. (Although I wonder if the Mets knew David Ross was available- that's the guy the Mets should have gone after!)
I remember watching Ross in the dugout as a player and reading/hearing interviews and he gave off big time manager vibes. Now I’m dreaming the Mets get fortunate and grab him as bench coach for Mendoza. He’ll probably get one of the open manager jobs though. Bummer.
After thinking about the Mets managerial decision making- I've come to conclusion that David Stearns may not be the savior/messiah that a lot of Met fans think he is. Shouldn't he have known a. That David Ross would be available and b. That Counsell really didn't want to move to NY?
Should we deserve a PBO who is plugged in? And please tell me why Counsell can get a multimillion multi year deal to manage when the Mets need to get a multimillion multi year deal for their first baseman whose happiness is more important than who he reports to in the dugout?
The money isn’t comparable. But I think Cohen doesn’t want to be seen as blowing up another market. I don’t think the Pete negotiations have anything to do with how much it costs to hire a manager. The total player payroll, sure. But other expenses don’t compare to player payroll. That’s the largest expenditure. It’s like looking at the DOD budget vs the Dept of Indian Affairs.
And hold off on drawing conclusions about how good Stearns is until you see the results on the field. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt about Mendoza for the time being, that he likes him over Ross or anyone else available.
Appreciate the dose of sanity, per usual. People freaking out about the hire yesterday need to calm down. Sure, we all preferred Counsell but there is no reason Mendoza can’t work just as well.
I don't think 'we' all preferred Counsell, maybe the majority, but some of us would have preferred someone with experience as outlined by Cohen three years ago: he said he would not hire inexperienced people and pay them to learn “on my dime”, was the quote.
In my case I think they should have stuck with Buck and dropped Vogelbach
‘You’ seem upset. I’m sure Kyle did mean to speak for you, 😜
Can someone tell me why UFA's have QO's and draft pick consequences? They work hard to get into this position and then they have another anchor holding them back? For example, after next season when Pete becomes a UFA, will he have those strings attached?
This is the argument the players make in CBA talks. The idea is to protect teams from losing star players, or make it harder for big-market teams to scoop players up at no cost but money. But it has more worked as a depressing factor for players.
The players were offered elimination of the QO system in exchange for an International Draft but the players’ union turned it down. In any event I can’t feel too sorry for a player that is turning down a $20 million one year contract. It’s not as though they have to apply for food stamps.
And to be clear, they eventually come around and sign the agreement. Because it’s a compromise. Nothing is perfect. Life goes on.
Indeed teachers need to be paid more. But the PAT appears to be asking PPS to find money that the State of Oregon has not provided, a problem that cannot be solved by striking. (State provides all funding for schools in OR). So while they may get a slightly better offer via deck chair rearrangements, the kids and parents who pay plenty of taxes are the ones left holding the bag.
The players should form their own league but they're too wrapped up in themselves to even contemplate something like that. Where is Curt Flood when you need him?
If they were suffering enough, I’m sure they would. Or they would go play professionally abroad. I think they’re fine. Not gonna cry for them. They have a strong union that got them a strong deal.
I know what you are saying but any union that can get locked out because they are contemplating a strike is not a strong union. The players are short-sighted and quite frankly, not educated.
Portland Teachers have been on strike for a week now. Not feeling much solidarity at the moment.
The owners want it both ways and it’s ridiculous. A clause like this skews a UFA’s chances of moving freely...because they are not moving freely. This should be challenged in court but I’m sure the players capitulated once again.
Poor baseball players. So sad for them.
It's the principle of the matter. "Hey, you've reached x number of years, you are now an unrestricted free agent, except there are two prohibitive clauses that may keep you from making the most money, working where you want and teams may shy away from engaging you due to the penalties."
It's collusion, it's bullshit and somehow someone convinced people that this is what capitalism is. It's not. MLB is a tyrannical monopoly which behaves like socialists when it comes to the help. The players are the product and they produce the entertainment. What do owners do again? MLB is a monopoly and should be broken up.
Yes, let's hope that he is more than a "willing collaborator. "Something Buck Showalter struggled with" ? Considering Eppler's role in last seasons fiasco isn't it more like Eppler forced Buck to struggle in that role? Finally, another 1st time manager hire. Really, haven’t the Mets learned their lesson in doing that considering their recent hires before Showalter? Nothing, and I mean nothing that has transpired since seasons end has given me any confidence that the Mets will be anything other than a middle of the division team next year. Yet again, so Mets like.
You nailed it ! I agree especially "its the Mets"
It will still be exciting. This is the beginning of a new era. There will be growing pains and we will scream but it is all part of the building process. 2024 is another step and I can’t wait to take it all in.
To me -- knowing very little -- this looks like another massive failure by the media. Counsel sure seems like a Midwest lifer -- Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Milwaukee -- and the idea that he was coming to the Big Apple -- and that he would succeed in this environment -- seems dubious. Yet it was all presented to us as if it was a foregone conclusion.
On Mendoza: Who knows! I would have been okay with another year of Buck.
I am fine with selection. Stearns got someone he wanted and can potentially be here for a while. I am tired of the constant changing with this team. We need stability and Mendoza could be right hire since he is younger and can be in lock step with Stearns. We finally have stability with Stearns and I am fine looking at long term. I get we in NYC market but it’s about time we have stability.
I think consistency is really important and undervalued.
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Agree with Peter - its pure BS. I question Sterns resume - he also has 1 playoff win in Milwaukee - doesnt he ? I will say that Counsell was never coming to NY was playing the Mets
But if the Mets got the impression that Counsell preferred to stay in the Chicago/Milwaukee area, wouldn't it be a good decision to not offer him ridiculous money? The last thing you want to do is blow someone out of the water to try and convince him to do something he doesn't actually want to do.
Yes agree
“I feel like I gained very little insight from that meeting, which is obviously his prerogative to tell me or not tell me anything. I get it,” Ottavino told The Athletic. “There’s just so much on his plate, and this first year we just don’t have a lot of information on it yet, and I’m only signed up for the one year. The thought process is, I don’t know who else is coming on the team, I don’t know what’s happening with (Pete) Alonso, I don’t know what’s happening with the coaching staff.”
I find Ottavino’s quote the most illuminating thing from yesterday. He wanted to restructure his deal, which I take to mean he wanted to lengthen it. And Stearns was unwilling to give him insight into what the plans are for Ottavino beyond 2024 by committing to having him be a part of the 2025 bullpen. And unwilling to commit to Ottavino that his favorite coaches are coming back or that he will sign Alonso long term. Because why should he? It’s kind of silly. Stearns isn’t building a team around Adam Ottavino. He doesn’t need to confide in him what his plans are. He was willing to pay him $6.5M to be in the bullpen, but not more because there are probably 20-30 guys on the market that do what he does and will do it for that kind of money.
I think I read $4m of the $6.5 was deferred and Ottavino was willing to work for a smaller number (< 6.5) providing the deferral was removed.
Most baseball fans who are hardcore have heard of him since he has interviewed for previous jobs.
I honestly don't care because it's impossible to know. I thought Buck was a great manager choice for the way the roster was setup and it worked out very well in 2022 and then, for a myriad of reasons, didn't in 2023. I'm fine w/ a change, especially since the 2024 approach is not the full tilt all-in approach. I hate to just defer to the Front Office, but given the clamor to bring Stearns in for the last 2-3 years, to me, it seems, that the best course is to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am glad that Mendoza has experience in a ML dugout; I do think that's a helpful attribute to have generally. But again, who knows - I have never been in ML dugout outside of a tour I took at Shea in the early 1990's.
Don’t think that gives you enough experience, Peter? You have a leg up on me!
I should probably go into one that still exists first.
I suppose that should be a requirement. Fine.
Buck Showalter was a first time manager. The season after he departed The Bronx? Yankees won the WS. The year after he departed Phoenix? The DBacks won the WS. And after he departed Arlington and Baltimore? Those teams went on to make great progress. Look, let's give Mendoza a chance. (Although I wonder if the Mets knew David Ross was available- that's the guy the Mets should have gone after!)
I remember watching Ross in the dugout as a player and reading/hearing interviews and he gave off big time manager vibes. Now I’m dreaming the Mets get fortunate and grab him as bench coach for Mendoza. He’ll probably get one of the open manager jobs though. Bummer.
True. Ross would be solid.
After thinking about the Mets managerial decision making- I've come to conclusion that David Stearns may not be the savior/messiah that a lot of Met fans think he is. Shouldn't he have known a. That David Ross would be available and b. That Counsell really didn't want to move to NY?
Should we deserve a PBO who is plugged in? And please tell me why Counsell can get a multimillion multi year deal to manage when the Mets need to get a multimillion multi year deal for their first baseman whose happiness is more important than who he reports to in the dugout?
The money isn’t comparable. But I think Cohen doesn’t want to be seen as blowing up another market. I don’t think the Pete negotiations have anything to do with how much it costs to hire a manager. The total player payroll, sure. But other expenses don’t compare to player payroll. That’s the largest expenditure. It’s like looking at the DOD budget vs the Dept of Indian Affairs.
And hold off on drawing conclusions about how good Stearns is until you see the results on the field. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt about Mendoza for the time being, that he likes him over Ross or anyone else available.